AI Just Ate Customer Success

0:00 So welcome to Tesla Pod guys. So we have Komala and Kush from Peazy Labs here. so the car is driving by itself right and then your building software to actually basically drive itself right. So it's a very interesting space that you guys are in. so I mean like you know how does it feel to be building in SF right and the whole space that you're in? I mean the self-driving car is definitely crazy. I've like I've obviously seen them on social media everywhere, but sitting in it while the car is driving yourself, you as the driver, you're just on your laptop. I think it's our first time doing a podcast in a self-driving car. Yeah, for sure. I think it's your first time me even knowing about a concept like, right? So, I mean, if you do a quick 30 seconds pitch, right, about what PZ is doing. So what is it?

0:57 Yeah, we're an onboarding agent for software to onboard product demos and kind of assist customers to help use the tool better so that your customers they don't drop out. They don't have to read through super long product documentation or PDFs. They can learn how to use our software when they're on it as well. Right. So if I am a say a customer success leader, right, which I believe you're mainly selling to customer success leaders, right? So then why would I care? Yeah, I think really good question. We have seen I think I come from that space where I created a lot of like Loom videos. I was creating product documentation, a lot of FAQs, but at the end of the day for a user to submit a request or submit a ticket or even email you, that means they've already gone through so much frustration of, oh, I don't know how to create this dashboard. I don't know how to filter this thing out. And so that's why we wanted to build kind of if I could be there helping every single user at every moment of them using a tool, right? Well, that's what we kind of built because we wanted them to have that, you know, very personalized concierge experience of if I want to use a tool, I just want to use it. I don't want to have to think about it. I don't have to want to learn on a different video. I just want to get my work done. So we've built this agent that's fully

2:17 Understanding what you need to do, what you need to get done, just help you get that done faster, right? So I think I mean the typical things that if I'm new to a software, right? So how I would probably learn about the software is like you know by watching a couple of videos or like you know reading a bunch of documentation, right? And then so what you're essentially telling is instead of me having to watch 30 minutes like you know whole tutorial, right? and then come to do just like you know say if it's Canva like you know just to crop an image for an example right so you help to cut down all of that learning time right and then straight away get whatever I want to get done is that is that the case imagine if you could just ask Salesforce help me build a marketing campaign and you could just do it on the tool so we live as you know an on software support widget that's able to help you so you literally don't need to waste hours and hours learning a tool right. Right. That's super interesting. Right. So, and Komala like you know you your founder note on the like you know on the side it says right. So you've lived the churn problem firsthand right and then you've really been in the customer success space right. So what are the problems that you saw firsthand right that you really thought that okay man this is not how it's supposed to work right and then you

3:38 You wanted to like start building this. Yeah, I think like so I was doing sales and customer success, which is like onboarding customers and all that good stuff. I think what was heartbreaking the most was I spent so much time kind of like taking customers out for dinner, you know, building that relationship. These are big like large clients, five figure deals, right? After we onboard them, I would take like an live onboarding call, train them. We had like other people in the call as well, making sure that they understood the tool. But you know, that's not where the actual learning happens. That's not where they use the tool. It's like two weeks down the lane now their team members are sitting logging in for the first time and they're like h I don't know what to do. They're maybe checking Slack. They're like oh is there a recording of the onboarding call? How do I get this done?

4:24 And we were struggling on the end of I was looking at like post hog session recordings to see what did the user try doing like what did they actually do? where did they get to even have that insight of were they able to get what they wanted to done? I wasn't able to get that and so I felt very handicapped because I wanted to make sure the customers got value out of the tool and I couldn't get that information on whether they what did they actually try and what did they actually get done and I think that became kind of this core of only for really big deals we were taking weekly sessions weekly calls and everybody was on the call and we were like yeah how did you use the tool like how has it been blah all that good stuff but for majority of the other clients we couldn't because we had a shortage of human time. and I think that's what led me to if there could be literally a buddy sitting next to you helping you out like I wish I had that. So is it like I mean back in the day in Microsoft Word there was this Clippy, right? So is it something like that?

5:34 Yeah, you want to add to that? I think it started by being like Clippy, right? But we saw that the value is more in consulting them u not just showing them what to do by coming as a second cursor. One of the clients that we were speaking to they had sales users creating digital avatar videos on their platform and they went and asked Sajip hey can you give me a template to create a digital avatar video. JBT gave them a five minute script for a digital video because that's very good on a written script but it's not on a digital a avatar video right so when there is disconnect of not even knowing what to put in a platform you need consultation now that's what a good CSM would do in a human call they handhold you they will not just say click on that click on this they will handhold you and give you exactly tailor made what's good for your platform and I think that's what PC is trying to be that concurge that understands you, consults you, guides you, does things for you. Right. Right. And Kush, you're not originally from a customer success background as per say, right? So, how exactly did Koma sell you on this problem? No, I do come from a learning management system background, edit tech, right? we sold it to universities and we sold courses to students. There

6:55 Were two different episodes where in episode one students would do the learning sometime after graduation they get the hands-on experience. So whatever we gave them during college is kind of forgotten was not very well simulated learning hands-on learning that people were not that the students were not really performing well postgraduation and I was always dissatisfied of how disconnected these are and the same thing exists with customer education like you watch some video on YouTube and then you go try to use the platform the platform has changed or maybe you did not learn how to use it and the question comes if you want to if you want to sit in a Tesla today and it just drives. Why do you want to learn different car, different driving types, right? So different software just work to just work, right? To just get work done. So that's where we felt like, hey, can we make software self-driving? So you don't ne you never need to learn how to use the software.

7:53 You run the business, you know your show better and software will run itself. Right. Right. So and with regards of the origin story, right? So how did both of you meet, right? And then how did you decide to like you know that we have to work on this? Yeah. so PC is actually our second company together. We met in high school. We went to the same high school together and then we went to the same college and our first company well we our first organization that we built was Vimmana which was this nonprofit student organization. The second startup you're building. Yeah. Yeah. Right. and I think so yeah we've met we've known each other for almost 10 years and I think we've been building together for almost eight years now. So it kind of felt natural when I had faced this issue when we were talking about it. There was a lot of similarities in what Kashik just talked about of we had that disconnect when we were helping students with courses as well. There was that disconnect of okay we were training them but were they actually getting the work done? there was still that disconnect and so a couple of months ago when we started talking about this issue I think it was just very natural for us to say hey why don't we just solve this we clearly know what's missing and right now the AI

9:12 Capabilities can actually make it possible and we've done this before so how hard can it be right and so you mentioned this is the second startup that you are building together right previous one was Vimmana so the previous startup was Sapentry. Vimmana was kind of like the path into that. Vimmana was a nonprofit organization that we kind of pivoted into a for-profit company which is Sapian. Right. Right. And you all were building that here or in India? this was in India. Right. Right. Right. I see. Okay. So now diving a little bit into the Hey, there's robot XA. Oh yeah. The first time I'm seeing that actually. I've actually never seen it.

10:00 That's pretty nice. Right. People say it's cheaper than Uber. So, we should try that. Yes, actually. so diving into the product, right? So, your like the initial reaction, right, when someone starts to like, you know, understand your space, right? It is that like, you know, are you directly fighting with someone like Intercom or Zendesk, right? because that's kind of like you know the moment you get into a product what you're used to seeing is the intercom bot right you know kind of pinging you right and then asking like you know if I mean not really connecting to a human not so much right now right but rather like you know be it giving you resources or like you know trying to like get through to a human through that right so how do you like how do you differentiate right from these like you know giants like say intercom or zenes like you know bome like you know the different I mean I think me pendo they kind of in different space right but like if you had to start talking about like you know intercom or zendes like how do you differentiate yeah no 100% like those are all things that we've listed down as competitors in all of our applications but yeah the biggest difference is all of this has context about only product specifics and it requires

11:22 Somebody on the other side to manually update this For example, one of the customers that we have right now, they told us that four engineers were put onto a walk me kind of like project that they had, they had to feed all the information in and every time there was a new feature, any change on the UI, all of them had to be involved and had to update that accordingly and that just takes so much time to the point where they were like, you know, I don't really know if this is useful for people and so that's where we've been differentiated in terms of AI is now able to just read the complete product documentation, understand what to do on the tool and it becomes that concurge. So I think every so I was talking to Marty from Pylon the other day. I was at Saster and he said even though Zendesk has AI, he said Zendesk with AI is still Zendesk. So it's still very much clunky or you know not built for this AI native world. And I think that's where we're able to differentiate in terms of from the ground up, the agent truly understands what the user is trying to get done and help them get to that place faster and it's not just pointing and clicking on the tool. Right. Right. So if we get into the

12:37 Nitty-g gritties or the nuts and balls, right? So then I've like you've implemented PZ on a SAS product, right? And then I'm a user who's stuck in the like, you know, let's say a login screen, right? How would PZ really help me to get things going? Yeah, you could just say, "Hey, PZ, help me. I'm stuck." And it's able to see your screen. It understands what's going on. If you've like tried submitting your password and it doesn't work, it has that context as well. And so it's able to understand, hey, it looks like you tried logging in, maybe this didn't work. Let's try this instead. It's also going through all the product docs to see is there any way that you can reset your password? What are all the ways to help you get to where you need to be faster? and it's walking you through, okay, let's do this instead. Let's do this instead. And if nothing works and there's actually a bug on the tool, it'll be able to raise that request with the team saying, hey, there's actually a bug here that you need to solve. P 0, P1, whatever support ticket that's needed. Right. Right. Yeah. And just another thing to add, I think we see lesser of reactive support where

13:52 Can I log in? Can I create something? But we see for the current company that we're working with, it's a SEO company. they're not asking where do I click to create a new visibility experiment. They're very unsure what kind of experiment they need to do to boost their AI visibility, right? So they ask PY, hey Py, could you help me? Now PC knows everything about the account, everything about the user. They have it remembers from memory across multiple sessions. So it can say hey I know that you have launched two visibility experiments and you have launched two sentiment experiments. The next good thing to do would be a competitor analysis. Let's run an experiment. And then it would ask are these your competitors? Can I input them? It inputs them for them. So they don't need to type. Then it fetches the context for them. It types it in for them. and then it executes the experiment. So I would see that it's like an executive assistant that's sitting with you asking you questions and doing things for you than just one or two steps. Yeah. Right. Right. I see. And you are integrating with quite a lot of tools, right? So Salesforce, Post Talk, Pendo, Amplitude, Zendesk, like you know, you integrate with all of these tools, right? So h how do you

15:08 Did I get that wrong? I would say two parts. We do integrate if they have a connector, right? Do we manage data hygiene? Do we manage data consolidation? We kind of don't. We are looking at what is the current source of truth about the user about the account and that's about it today. Yeah. Right. Right. I see. So do you have plans to integrate with these major tools as well or do you see this being actually like a standalone tool operating separately? That's a good question. I think as a founder it's important to boil the lake and not the ocean and we are currently figuring out do we want to be closer to data do we want to be closer to a vertical because we saw Harvey is doing really good by being in legal space. Many are doing good in healthare and there are a lot of propositions that maybe we should enter health care because people are not very techsavvy.

16:09 So do we want to be you know expanding our product size product sprawl do we want to be in a given vertical or do we want to say hey tech SAS across go horizontal with a bigger distribution that's not a figured out answer yet. Right. Right. Yeah. Horizontal versus vertical SAS. You need to pick where I guess your strengths are. how you can grow and what are the numbers like now say I'm a SAS product right I've implemented PC right how effectively right would you be helping my because now I think one of the stats that I saw on the site was 94% right so that is like you know you are helping users very well right for them to come on board much faster right how are the numbers or stats looking like with the customers that you are working with right now every logged in user now gets that concur support. So they're not spending only 30 seconds to 2 minutes. That's the average SAS the first time you're logging in as a premium user. But now we are driving that up to 8 to 12 minutes because it's showing you around. Now you're involved now you're engaged. So there is a higher retention that you get. There's a higher probability that you come back and login. So that means we're talking about how do we cut down the high touch points that used to happen across multiple login into one single login that you realize the full

17:31 Product features in the very first login and then you keep coming back and does it lead to decrease support tickets yes how much yet to measure that's a multi-month answer I would say right which part of the I mean you mentioned couple of features right so the fact that the agent actively monitors what the user is doing right and guides the user right so I mean quite some interesting features that you all mentioned right so out of these like know which feature is the part that you're most proud of like in your product that's a good question I think for me like mo most proud as in like we dog food our own product and so when I'm stuck on a software ware. So like the what we deploy to our users is an inapp widget, but we also have kind of like this self-service version where you could genuinely just ask anything on a website. And for me, I think every time I get stuck on like how do I change my billing on Stripe or like how do I do this and like these simple questions where if I Google it, I'll have to go through a bunch of different things. Yeah, Google will show up some answer, but then I need to come back here and see, oh, I'm on the wrong type of I

18:48 Don't know module and it doesn't work here versus I can genuinely just ask PC and it'll help me within a couple of seconds. So, I think that was the most like what the wow this is actually very cool. Like I love using it on a daily basis. so I would say like I'm just proud that it's helping me just get my daily work done as well, right? What's yeah I think combo spoke from a personal context. I'm the builder so I try not to fall in love with the product as much as possible. from from the product feature perspective what's really helpful is its ability to have skills the agent skills that itself generates. So none of the flows which earlier humans had to sit and define for every release cycle now is taken care of by AI. I mean you are in a similar space you run AI simulations across and you capture different screens across different routes. and I think that's a really big timesaver that's underrated even on our product page in our product communications the ease of building the knowledge base ease of building converting them into guides and it's not a state machine right it's a skill you're just listing them as

20:08 Checklist so you can just type and say no I would like to add fourth step before submit I want to ask the user if they would like to change anything else in the form you can just type that as a CSM leader and I think that kind of guideline management is really good. first maybe adding another now I as a user can get a message from the customer success manager saying hey Rosha I see that last week you created a new SEO experiment I just personally want PC to show you a new visibility experiment. So you can just slide in a message while you're within the app that makes you feel like it's personalized. Costed no big time for the CSM but you know you got the personal touch NP and PC is showing around whatever the CSM told you but very personalized for you.

20:58 So is it right if I tell you're not only making the lives of the users better but also the lives of the CSMs better as well? 100%. Right. Yeah. So it's two parts of the problem that you're actually solving with one product. Yeah. Right. Yes. Also the views are so the first time I'm coming around here as well. Really? Yeah. I was here only once. Gorgeous. So moving into the co-founder life, right? So I know that as founders like you know we have to be delusional at times as well, right? So who out of both of you I know who's the optimist and who's the realist? Oh wow. I think very easily could the optimist as a realist.

21:40 I'm usually the devil's advocate on okay practically speaking why would this not work or why does this suck or what needs to be changed. but that's why you know like Kashall's incredible in that sense that very big visionary of like this is the amazing things that we could do and yeah I think you definitely need to be a little delusional for that. Right. Right. And what's the dumbest fight that you guys have got into so far? I think a lot. Like I think as founders you need to be very strong with your opinions and that also means that sometimes you tend to disagree a lot and I think that's part of becoming better because if you just agree on everything, right, you're not going to grow. So, I like feel like we have very dumb arguments a lot.

22:36 Anything that comes to mind? probably because I'm the tech person and she asks for certain quick features that she could demo. and I'm like, do you know what it takes to do that? And she'll be like, anyhow, you're asking Codex or Cloud to build it, so it should be fast. Like, do you want a $200 account now? We can get it. can you get the feature? I'm like, it's not always a feature. Maybe it sounds like a feature, but it's not a feature. It changes the architecture. and we cannot do that. And it gets a little tough sometimes to explain sit down and say, "Hey, this is how our product foundation is." And if I want to build a new Chrome extension just to show and it's not an inapp anymore, it's going to have a different bridge, different way of working. And we have had a couple of fights around that. Yeah. But I think it's a healthy one. because sometimes it pushes me to think different to create a smaller not a MVP right minimum working product right just so that we can show them especially just minimum viable product is not good enough right it needs to be working out yes correct yeah so I think yeah we've had a few fights around that yeah right I see and now recently

23:58 Like you know you guys got into Founders Inc. Right. That's where we met as well, right? So, let me quickly Yeah. pull back. Today is also such a like cloudless. The first time I'm coming to Chrissy Fields. It's really nice. We've also actually never come here, but like Marina Founders is nearby. So, let's head back there. And the drive through the park also with the trees was so beautiful. Yes indeed. All right. Heading to founders Inc. Right. So why we heading to Founders Inc. right? So that's when we initially met as well, right? So then we were I mean we were part of the previous batch, right? Which was the artifact, right? So then you all got into Canopy, right? So how has the founders Inc. experience been? Yeah. I mean I would say for me it's been like going back to school. you're in a classroom with all these people with insane amount of energy and even though you're all working on different things, it feels like everybody's on the same boat as you. And I think for us, we've had a lot of nonfounder friends for the majority of our entrepreneurship life. There was a lot

25:15 Of friends who we had who weren't building at Saturday 2 a.m. Right? But here when I come here, like the other day it was a weekend, Saturday or something, 2 am, there's still 50 people in the office. 50 people. My god. The second floor is was still full. And it's those moments where that was not the case with our batch. Well, this I think this batch is a little crazier, but it's also this batch is bigger than artifact. So, that's probably but that was one of those moments where I can just go to the next desk and ask somebody for any question and you know, we're able to support each other. So, having that community was just insane and like and now I've made so many friends from the Canopy cohort as well. And I think the mentorship has been wonderful too in terms of even though between Kushan and I am the more practical one the mentors like Hubert or Russ they're able to give like this has actually worked in the industry you should try this hasn't worked rethink about this give kind of exactly based on their past experience advice as well right so moving to hot takes right so what

26:31 Is the hottest take in customer success right now that CS leaders won't really speak about at conferences. you know, I will say so many of the customer success leaders that I've spoken to like over LinkedIn or met up at conferences, unfortunately, a lot of them are out of jobs now. And I think the hot take is that's becoming one of those areas where if you're not using AI to enhance your own productivity and the efficiency of the overall company, it's unfortunately it becomes like the target or the scape code for the entire organization to see oh it looks like like that's one of the things that we can cut out from the budget immediately. So, I think like if you're a customer success leader, anybody working in that space, I'm not saying this to fear you fearmonger or but it really has been something that I've seeing been seeing more and more often of people not kind of moving up with the AI trends. And it's not just about like using cloud or talking to chat GPT about making a presentation but it's truly about how can I just help increase customer efficiency whatever it is using AI. I think that's actually something very important to think about

27:52 Right now another fear that's coming up is like say would the role of customer success teams go away altogether right so could this be a role that can easily like you know very easily be replaced with AI right how do you see like within the next five years things playing out right do you think that these AI native tools like what you guys are building, right? they are going to really be taking over the complete customer success role as per se, right? Or do you see it be more of like a collaborative role where like you know people are working together with agents? Yeah. I was in Finn yesterday, Finn operator launch and they had they had a major event, right? They had a major event and what I was able to distill out of it is you had customer success service support implementation team professional services team all of these post sales it's going to consolidate into one CX layer customer experience layer post sale what does it look like and I think if a SAS company has multiple teams it's going to definitely consolidate that means it's going to dissipate a couple of people and the best example that I

29:10 Can think of always is what happened to the banks even today a lot of banks sell you there's a human trying to sell you the account credit card but there is nobody after sale like everything is self-service it works you're not thinking enough about is it a pretty app if I want to draw money if I want to get things done can you get things done without seeing a human yes you can get things done like you rarely want to see a human but this was not a case a decade ago you had to go see multiple people you had a relationship manager you had a teller you had a clerk, you had too many people that you had to go say hello to and now you don't. And I think that's what is going to happen in SAS. Maybe not in 5 years, literally in two years itself that there's going to be one person who sells and another person who's a scaled person who manages relationships and gets things done for you with AI, right? What is the most overrated thing in AI right now? And then what's the most underrated thing?

30:11 That's a good question. people think claude or any of the AI can change how workflows happen outside of Silicon Valley. But when I speak to people in like Midwest or like even East Coast, I don't see a lot of them using cloud using any of the AI, the max they do is chatting with chat GPT. They don't have plugins. they don't have. So the way I would see it is how many people use Chrome extensions, that's how many people are going to be using plugins, that's how many people are going to be using skills. so I think that's overrated that you can just connect data and everything is going to be within cloud or one of the chat interface. what is underrated?

31:03 Anything you want to add? what is underrated? I don't know. I feel like nothing about AI is underrated. Everything we live in the high bubble. I can't think of what is underrated from a average everyday user. Maybe I'm thinking voice interfaces are still underrated. I think it should have taken over. We are still in you. click on the space bar, you get to, you know, do talk to speak. but I think the duplex voice is not something that many people are building for. And I feel like do you guys use whisper flow? we use click a brain max speech text. Whisper flow has really changed I mean my life upside down I would say.

31:52 Yeah, genuinely I like after I started using it more often. What's the tool called? click a brain max. It's like similar. It's a thousand times better than Siri, obviously. But after I started using it, going back to typing just felt so like, "Oh, this seems so manual, like so such a waste of time. I can just talk and get things done." Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Right. Right. And say there's a customer success leader, right, out there, right, who's drowning in support tickets, right? who really thinks that like you know dashboards really mean something right and who's facing all these problems that you're like you know talking about right what would you say to them good question I would say first off don't worry about your job it's not about your job at the end of the day humans buy from humans and you having that relationship with your customers is extremely important and I think that's what you need to bank on use AI for everything else whatever you can to automate support tickets to automate you know every other workflow but you need to be that person who's helping customers see true value so I would say make sure that AI is doing the mundane

33:11 Work so you don't need to spend time worrying about that and you know you can spend time nurturing your customer relationships right and if there's another pair of founders like who's thinking about starting something but still haven't like you know pulled the plug, right? What would you say to them? I don't like I feel like everybody in SF just says oh quit your job, start a start a company. a lot of people in SF also tell people outside SF just come move here, right? Move to SF. Everything will magically work out. Few words big on that, right? Yeah. Just move to SF. Just move to SF. Everything will work out. like in reality this like it's not magic right so like I would say don't start a company and unless you really want to don't start it because you're thinking about it you have some random idea like test it out get some validation get some paying customers even if it's very small prove to yourself that you're able to do it and then take it on as a challenge because I will say it's extremely hard extremely humiliating to be a founder because one moment you're crying, you're balling your eyes

34:27 Out and another moment like an investor just had a call with you and it's great. So, it's going to be a roller coaster of emotions and you need to be able to wake up every single day and say, "Yeah, I'm doing this because I want to because I see this vision for the future." So, like my hot take is it's not for everybody. founding a company is not for everybody. Only do it if you genuinely truly know that's what you need to do in life and you have some some sort of backing or proof that you're able to do it. That's awesome. Oh, it's your take on that. I think I do have a contrasting thought. It's such an inflection moment that everybody should be building today.

35:10 They don't need to quit their job. U, that's not necessarily the way to get started. They just need to open Google AI Studio. Everything is free. open GCP account, $300 free credits you get and you should start building and prototypes, right? And these prototypes are so good now. It comes with the database, it comes with Cloudr Run, host it and go sell it until you make 10 sales to people that you do not know, you should not be quitting the job. And if three people buy, you still have a lifestyle business that you don't have to quit the job and it still generates some kind of money. So I think stop thinking of scaled architectures. Just open Google AI Studio, start building, start deploying already. You don't need to be a tech person. You just click publish. It's almost like writing a document and clicking on publish. That's how simple it has become today to build software. And I think everybody should be building. Yeah. And there's two avenues that people could take here, right? So I mean you brought an interesting side Koma like you know with regards of finding a problem, right? And then like see if there's validation there and then building towards it, right? And also at the same time like the point that you brought up right it's easier now more than ever to build something right so these are kind of two approaches right which like you know are contradicting with each other at times as well right

36:28 So which approach because I mean like I could like you know straight away get Google AI studio and then start building right and then look at okay once I have it in my hand right I could like you know it's always chicken and egg problem right so I situation so like you Unless you have the product in hand, you can sell it as well, right? and also like you know when you have the product in hand like you know are have you actually built something that the world needs, right? So these are kind of the contradicting thoughts, right? So then where do you think that the find fine line or the midpoint is and should be? if you haven't quit the job, you don't need to spend a lot of time today in customer discovery. you should first become a builder like you need to know how to move things fast how to become operationally more efficient because operational failures are more daunting than just customer discovery failures so that's why I said you got to start building different things just not one thing so you become a builder you can ship things faster and I think then comes okay you have now figured out one ICP then you have to say okay I'm not going to fall in love with building I'm going to fall in love with solution making and selling to understand this one ICP really well and I think product market fit and market product fit these both are two different terms it should not be only PMF if you think

37:46 About Finn today Finn started with customer service now they're selling to sales as well now they're selling to e-commerce fin for e-commerce is there so it's totally natural for you to start with one ICP and then expand to the other ICP and maybe pull plug saying okay I started with customer service I don't want to be working in customer service anymore I want to work with e-commerce just because you were able to get out there, people know about you, people have heard about you have the distribution, you'd be able to make sale happen there. Yeah, that's my take. anything contrasting there? Yeah, like I think I agree. If you're in a job, don't necessarily quit the job. Build something, get some validation, and then take it on. yeah, I think I agree. Right. Right. So, I think it's been a great chat, guys. Right. So where do people find PZ? pzlabs.com. you can follow me at Kosan on LinkedIn as well. I'm Kla Chenna. This is Koshal Morti. and yeah, we're helping make software on boarding easy peasy and self-driving, right? So making software I mean just as the car is self-driving, you're making software self-driving. So that's awesome, guys. Thanks a lot for the chat. Yeah.

38:59 See you next time. Thanks. Thank you. This was actually fun. All right, let's see how it came. small pro Whoa.